>Mystified Musings on Madame Mesh.

>

This is Madam Mesh, she’s a part of the recent announcement of an announcement which the Lab has issued to take your minds off the fact that things are falling apart currently (see previous post).

Now, as in 2008, when flexible prims were a faint possibility, I would certainly welcome mesh imports to Second Life, but I am not quite euphoric as some of my fellow bloggers for a number of reasons.

I am not worried about competition, pirated stuff, any of those things, I am simply wary.

I am mystified by a number of things (nothing new there then), the first being why, as a presentation, Madam Mesh is rolled out (the bug-eyed monsters I welcome with open arms).

She will never take off in SL, she is a dodo, extinct before she starts.

She can’t change her underwear, take her clothes off or change shape or size before she is re-Blendered. If you buy her from a creator, that creator will have to sell you a new sculpt map, worse than that from what I understand, 5 maps, before she can change shape or size.

” Each mesh will consist of five component meshes: four for different Levels Of Detail and one for collisions (for Havok).
Levels of detail will be needed for each object, as they cannot be generated on the fly (as they are with sculpted prims). This means modelers will need to create four versions of the same object. Starting with the most detailed version of the asset, each decrement will need to consist of around a 50% less polygons than the previous level. These levels of detail can technically be generated by the Second Life client’s mesh import tools, but this takes exact control out of the hands of the user.” [From the blog post by Sand castle Studios, as are all the subsequent quotes.]

Maya is a very expensive piece of software and I don’t expect these things to be cheap.

OK, and the next thing that mystifies me is …do they really think any female in SL is gonna wear hair that looks like its been carved out of concrete?? I mean…. haven’t they heard of conditioner?

Our avatars are already mesh imports ..why present Madame Mesh as an example of the wonders of mesh? Any single one of my friends dresses better than that.

…and, Boys, don’t talk to me about ARC (avatar rendering cost), I am not dressing down for anyone. I pay my Membership … you sort out the servers, don’t ask me to look crap so you have an easier life….

Madam Mesh is an avatar from another game, she doesn’t belong here, and will never sell, why drag her out now?

I have more than one question about textures too. Texturing a mesh, which can be as big as 25x15x30, is that supposed to be done with a 1024×1024? it will look crap. Imagine an texturing an octopus…. This will do nothing to increase the resolution of SL unless they allow 2048×2048 on meshes…

” Meshes will need specifically made textures.” … that means none of the textures currently in world, in our inventories, will be of any use at all…. and from what I currently know about texturing in Blender it’s bloody complicated.

Ok…so..moving on …prim cost..

” Like other in-world objects, mesh objects will have an associated prim cost.  The prim count of mesh objects is determined by the file size of the highest level of detail, or the physics cost, whichever is higher.
As it stands, the mesh economy is governed by virtual prim count associated with each mesh object. This prim count is based on the storage (memory) size of a given object, a rough translation being the higher amount of polygons an object consists of, the greater its prim count will be. However, other aspects of a mesh object can also play a role in its associated storage size, such as smooth versus hard-edged normals. There is a hard limit of ~60k polygons per mesh object, although such an object would cost a great deal of prims.”

So… if you thought one mesh = one prim, you are wrong. one mesh=X prims, X being a number the Lab will decide.

Now, I have seen written countless times that mesh imports are gonna reduce lag. The argument goes like this…. one mesh replaces many prims, therefore, less prims = less lag. This argument exactly is the one that is rejected when applied to megas…. one 30x30x1 mega prim = 9 standard prims. So…why is this argument being rolled out now??

Linden Lab get paid, by tier owners, per prim.
One mega costs one prim, therefore the Tier Payer saves money (prims) the Lab loses.
One mesh costs X prims, therefore the Lab gains, Tier Payer loses.

…and…if a mesh object can be up to 60k polygons…lol… tell me again how that is gonna reduce lag….

So…only time will tell, firstly if they can solve the texturing problem, how expensive they are, and how much lag they make… and secondly if it’s a good enough reason for people to use the Infuriating viewer. The other viewers will not be able to import em, as far as I understand.

… oh and thirdly, if it actually ever happens….

Will it be a Mass Mesh Mash-up?

:))

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21 Comments

Filed under Mesh in SL.

21 responses to “>Mystified Musings on Madame Mesh.

  1. >My gosh…We have the "submarine effect" at sim crossings (but we are gonna get name changes).We have a broken search (but here come meshes).My grandfather told me a very long time ago about the "Kiss principle" (keep it simple stupid!)Innovation is great…but just look at the fantastic builds available now…why not make everything we now have work? (Or is this a case of give us "new & shiny" to keep us from seeing the man behind the curtain. Thats what we do with a crying baby…give them a shiny and they forget for a minute they arent geting fed.

  2. >I respect your opinion and I appreciate and thank you for posting a link to my post and work, but there are a lot of things that are factually incorrect in your post.The rigged mesh avatar you chose to feature is only one example of something one person created, it is by no means representative of what a rigged avatar mesh is or can be.While I don't think most standard avatars will be replaced by rigged meshes (they will be more useful for non-human avatars or game design/machinima characters)let's just say for a moment someone did create a human mesh avatar to replace their current avatar. It doesn't have to be shiny or metallic/plastic looking. In fact, with some time, detail, and quality texturing.. it could look extremely realistic. As you mentioned yourself.. our current SL avatars are meshes (though they are actually irregular meshes.. you can think of an irregular mesh as a polygon mesh in which the polygons are NOT laid out in neat or predictable pattern). If the designer/creator made their new avatar match the UV's of the standard SL avatar, then the mesh avatar could change clothes, etc just like any other avatar. While you are right in stating that you would not be able to modify the shape of your mesh avatar (although meshes do not use sculpt maps, they are exported into SL via a COLLADA file) many creators sell no mod shapes. And just to correct your statement that you would need to generate 5 meshes to change your mesh avatar's shape.. a rigged avatar does not need collision, and though it still needs the 4 Levels of Detail, as I said and you quoted, SL can generate the LoDs for you. Just to clarify though, once in world, all 4 Levels of Detail are bundled into one asset/object. As for hair. Mesh hair would not look like concrete. In fact, it would look as detailed as current hair in SL, if not more so. But just like most current hair is made up of regular and sculpted prims together, I speculate mesh hair will be much the same to allow for flexi. However, the bonus of using mesh hair is that you could bind the mesh strands to your shoulders so that they didn't go through your avatar and instead move with the body of your avatar.continued below..

  3. >You stated that you would no longer be able to texture a mesh and so textures would be useless. Just like you can't just put any texture on a sculpted prim, you can't do this on a mesh either. However, you can still use your textures, just in a proper UV for the mesh. You also stated the fact that one mesh does not equal one prim (although it can), as if the conversion was a bad thing. Most meshes will be extremely low prim (if done right). For example.. later today on our blog, I will be releasing a tutorial of how to create a mesh chair in Maya. That chair (like most chairs)has a back, a seat, spokes, legs, etc. It would normally be about 9 prims, but as a mesh it is only 1 prim. This can extend to much larger objects as well though. There is a giant, detailed tree that was created in closed mesh beta that would normally be like 30 prims, but it was only like 5 prims as a mesh. The argument you gave for lag is also incorrect. It is not just that a mesh is less prims, it is that a mesh is less polygons. This is explained in detail with pictures here – http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/linden-lab-offically-announces-mesh-support-in-second-life-at-slcc, but in a nutshell.. each face (side) of a prim cube in Second Life is made up of 18 individual triangles or polygons. If you create a cube in SL, and go into wireframe mode, you can see them and count them for yourself. A mesh cube could be created with only two triangles per face. So with some simple math.. a cube has 6 sides or faces.. 18 x 6 = 108. This verses 2 x 6 = 12. Now imagine rendering 50 cubes. That's 5,400 polygons verses 600. Not only will this reduce lag, it will greatly improve performance. The advantages of mesh are not only great, they are still unseen. Linden Lab as opened a door, where the potential opportunities are endless. I think once more people understand meshes, they will come to love them.

  4. >Well thank you for taking the time to explain that. it is probably something that I should have known , but the only information I had was from the Sand castle studio blog.As I said at the beginning I welcome the chance to use meshes, and time will tell.Just to correct you on textures tho, I can apply any texture in my library to a sculpted prim. I understood from your blog that I would not be able to do that with a mesh…making all my textures useless for texturing meshes.While I understood the argument for meshes and lag, I am correct in saying that a similar argument for megas is totally discounted by the Lab at this time….and 60k polygons is gonna be a load that the poor servers are not gonna be able to cope with as, currently, they can't even load a texture without complaining.

  5. >(cont.)…It is extremely unlikely that a designer is going to take time out to design an avatar the same shape as the current SL avatar, so I hold by assertion that if you want to change outfits you will need to buy a new mesh. The hair I am still totally unconvinced by, but as we both agree that meshes will be more used for the bug-eyed monsters, it is really not an issue.I look forward to seeing your tutorial but have to say that most sculptie chairs are 1 prim. The tree I am interested in.Again, thank you for your time.

  6. >To clarify, I guess you *could* texture a mesh with a texture from your inventory.. but similar to sculpted prims, depending on the object, it could be hit or miss if you're not the creator. For example.. with a mesh roof.. I could pull out a different shingle texture and replace it. On the flip side, if I had a complex object like a car, unless I wanted a plain car-shaped object, I could not simply just drag and drop a texture from my inventory. I would need the UV snapshot of that object to properly texture it. I hope that makes more sense. You are 100% percent right in saying that there is an argument for mega prims and lag, but meshes have more upside, and the reason LL doesn't approve of mega prims is due to parcel encroachment. As for 60k polygon meshes.. you would have to have a TON of prims in order to upload that mesh. In reference to avatars, LL is already discussing (as announced at SLCC) ARC limitations regardless of mesh or not. However, depending on the mesh.. yes, a 60k polygon mesh could cause lag and strain on the servers, but still less then most examples currently in SL. For instance, Runitai Linden gave the example of a current and common pair of sculpted men's shoes that were 80 prims and 80k polygons for the pair. These same shoes created as meshes could be made using roughly 2 prims and a couple hundred polygons for the pair.

  7. >thank you. That does clarify the texture issue for me.

  8. >phew. most of that goes right over my avatar's head. (and gets tangled up in my antennae.)

  9. >I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantageous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  10. >I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy. The number of polygons rendered by a sculpt is far higher.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  11. >I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  12. >I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.

  13. >Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  14. >I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. (cont)

  15. >Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  16. >Indigo Mertal added…..I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantageous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.

  17. >Thanks again Indigo, these are exactly the sort of details we need to know.

  18. >See my first post here…All this is wonderful…fix the damn problems we have NOW first!And btw…fast easy fun? *face palms*

  19. >*tries untangling Wizard's poor antennae*Conditioner… :D@sororOk, technically this is all fine and swelly. However, I will echo Brinda: I don't give a fig if I can have perfect mesh boobies and calves if I can't find a darn thing in Search, or use a Group Chat channel that becomes useless in 3 minutes. Likewise, if the economic base of SL hadn't been jerked around, backhanded, put off, treated like chattel and little bitty data points on some naive wet-behind-the-ears MBA's chart, causing increasing revenue loss and entailing chopping the server farms down to three Pentium IIIs and a 486, we might not have the prim problem that prevents megas being standard (they work just swell in IW)and entail the need for Barbie Hair.Hopefully, no one is foolish enough to think that this could be used to carve a couple pennies off of everyone buying new dresses for new avatars in the same way the great cd/dvd/bluray/HDMI swindle has been going; if so, they'd better catch up to the current backlash in sales figures for this type of switcheroo.I don't know why this simple statement, echoed by thousands of SL residents over several years, does not make an impression on The Guys' scrambling about for a "k1ll3r @pp" and bemoaning the loss of the userbase… especially when given the current 'Face20cloud' focus:SECOND LIFE IS A SOCIAL MEDIUM. FACILITATING SOCIAL TOOLS IN SL ARE BROKEN (sim crossing, prim jumping, Group Chat and Notices, Inventory). I DON'T GIVE A POODLE'S FLUFFY BUTT ABOUT UPPING MY DEVA PROFILE IF I CAN'T TALK TO MY FRIENDS AND GET NOTICES OF SHOWS AND GET-TOGETHERS.*phew**puts more conditioner on Wizzy's antennae*

  20. >Don't worry Soror, make some trees and be happy

  21. >Now, that's a good bit of advice….. thanks…:))

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